Mary Parker:
I am Mary Parker and welcome to this episode of Eureka's Sounds of Science. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Elise Lewis, principal director of toxicology for Charles River's Horsham, Pennsylvania site. For over 20 years at Charles River. Dr. Lewis has made drugs safer through her research on developmental, reproductive, and juvenile toxicology. Basically, she makes sure that the drugs we test are safe for pregnant people, babies, and young children, among others. She joins us to share her passion for her work and her experience as a woman of color in the scientific community. Welcome, Elise.
Elise Lewis:
Well, thanks, Mary. Glad to be here.
Mary Parker:
I'm so glad to have you. And I just think it's really interesting, right off the bat, to be talking about developmental toxicology because I just kind of imagined that the early stages of life could be some of the most vulnerable to a drug toxicity. Am I right about that?
Elise Lewis:
Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot that we can be exposed to over time but when you think about a developing offspring that we don't know truly what's happening from one moment to the next when they're being exposed in utero. So we want to be able to be in the forefront of testing to make sure for those known agents or those things that they may be exposed to, that we can at least give a mother and her family some semblance of hope that they can safely take medicines during pregnancy or maybe during lactation or during early childhood development, that they have the assurance that there's something there to keep them safe.
Mary Parker:
Right. Yeah. So can we start with your background? Where'd you grow up and did you always dream about a career in science?
Elise Lewis:
So I am a native from Alabama and I received my bachelor's and doctorate degree from the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. And since I was in middle school, I wanted to be an obstetrician. That was always a passion of mine and I dreamed of being able to do it for the longest time. And once I completed my undergraduate degree, I realized that the hospital environment was just not for me. So I then took a detour. So having that backup plan is very important when you're going through a graduate program or thinking about higher education. So I diverged from my pursuit to be a medical professional and I found a way to marry my interest in the medical field with a passion that I had for studying birth defects and making sure that those intentional versus unintentional exposures to drug products or chemicals could be minimized or averted all together. So I think that that detour gave me the opportunity to touch more patients rather than just one patient at a time.
Mary Parker:
That actually makes a lot of sense. A drug researcher would theoretically have more effect on patients than an individual doctor, all though obviously both are important. And it's funny you mentioned that you wanted to start as being a doctor. I've interviewed other people and they kind of had a similar story. They started with wanting to be a doctor, but then moved to research. And I think sometimes they didn't even know that was an option at first. They thought it was just doctor or nothing.
Elise Lewis:
Exactly. I mean, when you go through your early academic programs, they kind of help you to shape and mold you over time. And then they ask you, "Well, what do you want to be when you grow up?" And I come from a long line of teachers and those who are having an impact in early stage development and making sure that they're laying the foundations for those as they're going along their academic pursuit. And so that's really all I knew besides seeing doctors and lawyers and nurses and, of course, people that were in athletics or sports and things. But I had a different interest. And it was something that, when I told my eighth grade teacher that I wanted to be an OBGYN, and she just kind of looked at me like, "Well, where'd you get that from?" And literally that is what I stuck with every year. And sometimes people's passions change over time, but I've always had a very strong interest in the medical community, healthcare, things of that sort.
Mary Parker:
Yeah, that's just funny you reminded me that when I was a kid, I used to tell people that I wanted to be a cosmologist and they would give me a look like, "But you have terrible hair and no interest in makeup."
Elise Lewis:
Oh my god.
Mary Parker:
And I'm like, "No, it's a different thing." It didn't work out either way so that's okay. So speaking of teachers, who were some of your childhood heroes?
Elise Lewis:
The top of my list. I'm always going to have to pay homage to my mother. She was very, very active in my life, not just as a teacher, but as my mother in making sure that my best interests were always at her forefront. She was the one who told me as I was going through and making plans about what am I going to do and what do I want to be and she was like, "You're not going to be a starving artist." Because I had an interest also in music. I played piano and clarinet and bass clarinet and contralto for quite a few years while I was in junior high through high school. And when I got into college and I said, "Well, maybe I could minor in music." And she just kind of looked at me and was like, "Absolutely not."

So I had to modify my plans based on her wisdom. The wisdom of the mother is like non other where you don't see it at the time and you're like, "You're just not allowing me to grow and develop the way that I want to." And now that I see some of the things that she helped me to restructure and to navigate a different path, I'm very blessed by the fact that she used her infinite wisdom and just guided me in the right direction. I get my work ethic from my mother. I watched her as she was educating young minds over time, and she was one of those teachers who stuck with the system for many years. She was a teacher for 42 years. But what I saw as I was growing up is that no child in her classroom, nor in our community, was ever left behind.
She took the time to tutor after school. She took the time to grade every paper that she ever gave every student, never discarding any because of the time of the day. She also made sure that on the weekends she was active in community service or in her academic sorority. And during the summer when she was off, when most people would want to rest, she was actually tutoring students. And I get that passion for education from her. I get the work ethic from her because I don't believe in leaving any stone unturned. And when it comes down to the work that we do each and every day, I apply that to my day job and I also apply that to things that I do out in the community as well.
Mary Parker:
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's a definitely a good role model. I'm hard pressed to think of any job that works harder than teachers.
Elise Lewis:
Yes, absolutely.
Mary Parker:
I mean, a lot of us get to turn our work selves off when we go home. Teachers are never off. They're always on.
Elise Lewis:
Always on, always on.
Mary Parker:
So what were some of the defining milestones in your academic career? What made you switch to toxicology specifically?
Elise Lewis:
So when I was going through my undergraduate program, I finished that fairly early. Most people were on the four or five year track. I think I finished within three and a half years. But that last semester of my undergraduate program, I took a toxicology course, a basic toxicology course. And as we were going through each organ system systematically I gained a different respect for biological sciences. And it wasn't just like a standard anatomy course and it wasn't a course that was related to, say, physiology. It truly talked about toxicology and unintentional exposures and what could actually happen from poisonings and just changes over time. And that piqued my interest a lot because, to that point, I was mentally going to medical school. And also during that time of when I was in those early stages as an undergraduate, the dean of the department for biological sciences kept trying to recruit me for graduate school.

And I'm like, "I'm going to medical school." I was like "Why are you trying to deter me from my path?" And just having those conversations with him every semester and he's there to help guide me academically. And I was set in my ways. I was going to medical school. And in that last semester, my mother actually ended up having to go to the hospital and she had been seen for some tightness in her chest and they gave her a several doses of naprosyn while she was in the emergency room. And when we got home, she actually started to go into anaphylactic shock and we ended up having to go back to the emergency room. And the same doctor that had prescribed the medicine to her didn't remember that she had been there earlier. And, to me, that was one of those pivotal moments where that environment is so fast paced that sometimes you cannot render the care that you truly need to make sure that you're paying full attention to your patients.

And it wasn't like a huge bustling town, but the attention that they needed to pay just wasn't there. And I was like, "I can't do this if this would be a day-to-day situation for me. I actually care too much about the patient that I would want to make sure that I understand everything that's happening." And from the moment we walked into the emergency room to the time that she had gotten seen, I mean, there is a lot of changes that could have been made. I mean, I could have been without my mother at that time, but thank goodness for medical intervention. So I'm happy to be on the side of medical intervention at this point because that was probably the most defining thing for me to know that the hospital environment was not going to be for me. So at the same time, I was taking that basic toxicology course and realize that, "Maybe this is something that I could do and I can go back to the dean of the department and say, I think I've changed my mind."
Mary Parker:
"You were right."
Elise Lewis:
"I think I've changed my mind." So from the fact that he showed interest in me early on all the way from my sophomore stages as an undergraduate student to the point where he stuck with me, he was not giving up on the opportunity for me to go to graduate school and to also be considered as part of their future faculty fellows, which was one of their prestigious honors back at the time when I was going through the University of Alabama.
Mary Parker:
Well, it sounds like that he was a real mentor to you. I was wondering if you had any other mentors early in your career, including after you graduated?
Elise Lewis:
Yes. Well, while I was in graduate school, there was a postdoc that was part of my lab. Her name is Jane Rasco, and I am forever grateful for everything that she taught me from a toxicological research perspective. She taught me how to evaluate fetal skeletons and do all of the things that are necessary to make sure that we can truly assess offspring development over time. And she taught me how to dose the animals and to identify the animals and help to record the data. And we remain the best of friends to this very day, and I wouldn't be in this position right now if I didn't get an understanding of contract research from her as well because she spent some time working in contract labs before she came back into the academic institutes to work on her PhD. So she was able to lead and guide me in the right directions when it came down to a career path.
Mary Parker:
Is there any particular reason that you decided to go the contract research route as opposed to becoming a professor or working at any other type of company? Or was it just the job that came up?
Elise Lewis:
Well, interestingly, you should ask that. I had been talking to some mentees earlier this week, and as always the industry versus academia when you're going through biological sciences and most academicians are going to encourage you to stay in the academic environment because they're in need of researchers, they're in need of people at the bench top and people to teach and to shape the foundation of science. And I have a great respect for that. And certainly I had all the opportunities in the world while I was as a graduate student being a minority fellow teacher or to help train other lab instructors to teach alongside some of the other professors, to take all of their office hours. So I was being shaped to be an academician, and I enjoy that. Again, I get that from my mother and from my family and all the tireless academics that I've known over the years. And it didn't bother me that maybe I was going to go into that.

But having to apply for grants and doing the basic woes of being an academic research professor, if I could do it on a liberal arts basis, I probably would've gone in that direction. So when I was about to graduate with my doctorate degree, I was needing to make some fundamental decisions because my mother had a stroke while I was in graduate school, so I needed to decide how best to care for her. Did I need to stay in Alabama? Can I branch out and go and do other things and maybe use the academic environment as my backup plan? Because I still had that interest. So I actually applied to teach at a junior college because, again, a lot of things were in ebb and flow at that time, and this is why you always have to have a backup plan.

So I went and thinking that, "Okay, well I've taught all of these labs, I've got a lot of recommendations. I know the person that's the head of this department, knows a lot of people that are at the university and they are communicating about me." So I go in, I thought I did fairly well during the interview. And unfortunately I didn't get the job, but it probably was for the best. At that time, the state of Alabama had a law written in about the junior colleges that you had to have a master's degree in order to work at a junior college. And I had a PhD instead of a master's degree. And I was like, "What kind of nonsense is this? How do you tell somebody that just spent four or five years in a graduate program that they can't teach at a junior college?"
Mary Parker:
That's nuts.
Elise Lewis:
It literally was written into their laws. And then after I kind of toiled over that, like, "Oh my gosh, now what am I going to do?" Because I was thinking of staying home in that area with my mom. And my professor at the time, the head of my lab, Dr. Ron Hood, he introduced me to the contract research lab environment by connecting me with his network. And that was at a teratology society meeting at the time, they're now known as the Society for Birth Defects Research and Prevention. And I pretty much got interviewed on the spot and then got invited up to... I won't say the contract lab's name, but I got invited up to their facility to take a tour, do a presentation, and I accepted the job. And circa three years after that, I had already joined Charles River at that point, I got a phone call saying, "Hey, what do you think about this?" This particular junior college has now circled back to say, "Hey, do you think she'd be interested in that job now?"
Mary Parker:
That ship has sailed, buddy.
Elise Lewis:
That ship has passed. So I just found it fairly comical that you can work so hard and you can achieve to be the best that you could be, but there is always some type of roadblock, which is why it's very important for students coming out of their academic programs and trying to make life decisions as to what to do next, they need to have a backup plan. Don't put all your eggs in one basket and explore all of your options because I can, at any given day, pick up the phone and call some of our local institutes here and do presentations for them. Or I've been a part of various career panels or have the opportunity to go back to my home institute to present on toxicology and reproductive toxicology as one of their guest speakers. So you can always parlay some of your other interests with your current role so that you don't miss out on those opportunities to educate young minds.
Mary Parker:
Right. And your mom's wise council, it is harder to have a backup plan for music, for being a professional concert musician.
Elise Lewis:
Absolutely.
Mary Parker:
It's just harder. Oh gosh, more power to them. I feel like it's harder to be a concert musician than it is to be a movie star these days. It's just rough out there.
Elise Lewis:
It is rough out there.
Mary Parker:
Yeah. Well, speaking of roadblocks, what kind of impediments, if any, have you had to face as a woman of color in the sciences?
Elise Lewis:
I've been very blessed over the years, excluding my graduate years, I would say I've been in this field for over 22 years now, and I have not personally encountered any issues. But the more and more that I hear other people's stories and I then kind of put things into perspective to say that I have been one of few, I've been the only, I've been the first. I see what the problem is. But the bigger part of the problem is that how do you get biomedical research in general down into the early academic stages, to get people to stay in the STEM field, to recruit and to get them to stay? And there has been a lot of research that's been put out over the years that talk about role models. When people don't see a role model in someone else, it's, "Where's the me too? Where's the someone who's like me that may have gone through the same thing that I've done?"

Everybody has a different story, everybody has a different journey, but we may all end up in the same place. And it's very key for us to be able to go back in to those academic institutes to tell our story, to expose young minds or those individuals who are interested in a career in STEM or biomedical research or even in toxicology, that this is a path for you to follow. You don't always have to say that just because you love animals that I'm going to be a veterinarian.

Well, you can take that love for animals and make sure that you're parlaying it into another career where you can still work with animals. You can go back in and start to teach people the importance of vaccine research or start to teach people the importance of some of the testing that we do. But when they don't see other people along that path, because I can tell you that the field of reproductive toxicology is a very unique field in and of itself and then when you get into things like juvenile toxicology, very, very unique, you're not learning that in an academic environment. Very few schools these days are actually teaching the basics of developmental toxicology the way in which I was taught over 20 years ago. Well, I'll just say over 20 years ago, I'm going to leave it at that.
Mary Parker:
That's totally fine.
Elise Lewis:
And how do you get them to have and acquire a genuine interest in this field? But once they get into it, who else is out there to support them, to uplift them, to empower them so that they can see that they're not in this environment by themselves?
Mary Parker:
Yeah. It's funny, we talk about how important it is for people to see those jobs because, like you said, you think maybe it's doctor or nothing. But the reality is that at every level of biomedical research, there's just all these different kinds of jobs that can take anybody from high school graduates up to PhD level and everything in between. And having that exposure to all those different kinds of jobs is crucial, for sure.
Elise Lewis:
Well, it is. And just to highlight some of the barriers for women in science, not just for a woman in color in science. There's three different stages... This was published back in 2014, three different stages to influence girls or women who are interested in STEM between childhood to mid-adulthood. And that early stage, like early childhood to adolescence, they're more or less likely to move away from STEM because most people think that girls are not analytically minded, that they enjoy more of the nurturing aspects of life. They're getting their influence from their parents or their peers. They're starting to set personal goals or values. There's the gender stereotypes that go behind it. And how do you help to reshape a young mind?

And then when they start to move into that emerging adulthood, it's the lack of fit in that, whatever environment it might be, maybe it's in an academic lab while you're working on your master's or your PhD or whatever higher degree you're working on. They may be outnumbered by their male peers or they have fewer same sex role models or mentors than they have. And they may get into stem, but they're most likely to either completely leave it, abandon it all together, or leave prematurely before they had the time to cultivate and develop the skills that they need to be successful on the job. And they're equally as qualified.

And then when you get to that early to mid-adulthood, there may be gender bias in the hiring or promotional practices, whatever organization or institute that they're working in, bias in their scientific work because there is a such thing as unconscious bias that we all have to be mindful of. And are they being inclusive in their workplace environment? Because everybody deserves a seat at the table and we need to be able to listen openly to diverse ideas. And then there's the dynamic of the family and work balance. Work-life balance is very big for women. And then they may be undermined for retention overall. So it's a struggle for women in science in general. But then when I sit back and I think about women of color in science, well, they're lacking all of the role models that are necessary to continue to fill that pipeline so that I don't have to be the only one, the first one, and one a few.
Mary Parker:
Yeah. I mean, it's almost become a cliche, but it is so true. Representation matters, and seeing yourself in the people that you want to become is important.
We took a short break and we are back. So picking up, what are some of your proudest achievements?
Elise Lewis:
That's a very good question. And I can point out many, but when I sit back and I think about it over time, I had the opportunity during the height of COVID to be recognized during Black History Month talking a little bit more about leaving a legacy. And I was recognized by Fox News as a scientist in the area who was leaving an impact, a living legacy is what it was called. And that was a great achievement. I would've never thought that I would've made it that far at this point in my career. And I think that was a great opportunity for me to have other people see me and my contributions to biomedical research. And that to me was one of those moments that I wish that my mother could have been there for.

And it would've been so important for her to see that all the work that she had invested in me throughout my fundamental years, they were paying off. And that others had the opportunity to see what I can achieve and the legacy that I could lead just by having that moment in time of being recognized in that manner. And that was something that's just going to stick with me for a long time.
Mary:
I saw that interview. It was great. I'm actually going to share the link to it in the show notes so if people want to check it out, you can find the link there. And you've also been the president of a few scientific societies.
Elise:
Yes. So that's been one of those things that has been a great opportunity for me to learn a little bit more about scientific organizations, how we're working in the nonprofit space. Exposing trainees to cutting edge science and making sure that we are understanding a little bit more about the multidisciplinary work that we do across say, birth defects research within the industry. Also, about what it means to empower women to be the scientist that they could be. And I think about those opportunities and having spent the time in the presidential line, because it's not just one year and you're done, you're actually being groomed to go from the vice president elect to the vice president, to programming a meeting for a number of individuals to be able to attend a couple of hundred individuals. And then you do the presidency and you help to shape the foundation of the organization or to continue to build upon what's already there.

And then you go into the past president. And then as if I wasn't a glutton for punishment already, I went from one scientific society and that presidential chain to the president of another scientific society back to back. But now that I've done it, I've been able to learn a little bit more about strategic planning. I've had the opportunity to work with some amazing individuals across the industry, and not just in my field of drug development but other women in science who are local here in Philadelphia, that are working at Drexel University or St. Joe's or Temple and other places that are trying to put out students that are interested in biomedical research or interested in other areas of STEM. And empowering them, again, to uplift them, to show them things that they could possibly do in their career path, but talk about science and help them to grow as an individual as well.

How do you mentor up? How do you ask for a promotion? How do you write cutting edge research up in a journal? Those types of things. How do you even interview for a job? And those are some of the basic things that we're getting the opportunity to teach people from the Association for Women in Science. And now that I've finished those roles as president and had those great opportunities, now I've moved on to moving towards the Association for Women in Science Chapters and Advisory Group where I get to oversee multiple chapters, and help them to put on programming that will be enriching for women in the area of STEM.
Mary:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, besides mentoring, what are some of the aspects of your job that get you really excited? Is there a particular aspect of toxicology that you think is just the coolest?
Elise:
Well, hands down, I'm going to tell my general toxicology friends that are out here, that reproductive and developmental toxicology and juvenile toxicology is by far one of the greatest fields that I could have imagined for a career for me. I get to see a lot of different things that help us to make sure that we are shaping the drug development the right way, making sure that there are no more Thalidomides on the market, making sure that the appropriate medicines can be taken by women of childbearing condition or women who are pregnant or nursing mothers, or even helping to develop drugs for the pediatric population for those childhood diseases that are very specific in the pediatric population.

So I get to see a lot of things from a developmental perspective, and it's not the same study each and every day, because the consequences could be different no matter what category of drug you're working with or classification of the drug you're working with. Some of them could be subtle effects, some of them can have profound toxicities, and we want to be able to be there to fill in the gaps to say, "No, this should not proceed." Or, "Yes, I think this is going to be safe."
Mary:
You've just accomplished so much in your career, but is there anything else that you hope to achieve or discover?
Elise:
Well, I truly believe that the best is yet to come, if I had to do a hashtag. Hashtag my life, the best is yet to come. I don't feel that I've reached the pinnacle of my career. I want to be known for leading, continuing to learn and leaving a legacy. And while I was already recognized as a living legend, while I've already accomplished things early in my career that I never even thought were possible just because someone else believed in me, I am a living example of what a mentor or a sponsor could actually do. I want to be able to pave the way for others.

And I think that is the most important thing that I can do going forward, is to be that sponsor for someone else, to help them to, again, see the possibilities, be exposed to them, experience the possibilities, and help them to continue to grow in their careers. But if I had to just pin it down, there's so many more things that I have and I want to do, but at the top of my list would be my three Ls of Leading, Learning and Leaving a legacy.
Mary:
That's awesome. Well, if you had to go back in time and choose any other job, what would you pick?
Elise:
Well, I think I'm in the perfect job for me right now. I look at it as... I had the opportunity to try the medical school approach, and I learned even before I got through the application process that the hospital environment was not for me. But if I had to go back from an academic perspective, I always wanted to get my MD PhD. But even if I did do that, I probably would still be doing the same thing that I'm doing right now.
Mary:
That's amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining me and sharing your advice and your career with our listeners, and I hope that we see even more awesome things from you in the future. But no pressure, of course.
Elise:
I feel like you just pressured me, Mary.
Mary:
Whoop. Sorry.
Elise:
Well, thank you for this opportunity. This has been a great conversation, and I look forward to more opportunities to be able to share infinite wisdom with you one day.
Mary:
Absolutely. I would love that. Thank you.
Elise:
All righty. You take care.
Mary:
Bye.