- I'm Mary Parker

and welcome to this episode of
"Eureka's Sounds of Science."

(upbeat music)

People go into medicine
for a lot of reasons.

And sometimes,

it's because of a medical
experience during childhood.

Marcus Gerald, a senior
scientific associate,

who works at our Horsham Pennsylvania site

is one of those people.

At a young age, he experienced
firsthand what it feels like

to be a patient

and that experience affected his education

and career as an adult.

He joins us to tell his story,

as well as to discuss the
challenges facing Black men,

who go into STEM fields.

Welcome Marcus.

- Thank you for having me.

- Thank you so much for being here.

(lady laughing)

First off, can you tell
me about your current job,

like what kind of research do you do?

- Sure.

So, I'm a study director

at Charles River Labs in
Horsham, Pennsylvania.

I work specifically

in Developmental and
Reproductive Toxicology or DART,

as well as juvenile toxicology.

And essentially what we do,

we test drugs that are developed

by different pharmaceutical companies

and we're determining their safety.

So, we wanna know,

one, are they safe for pregnant women?

Women who are currently pregnant

and as well as the developing fetus.

Are they safe for women
who might be nursing?

Are they safe for men
and women who are looking

to conceive soon?

Or is it safe for children?

So, a company may wanna repurpose

a drug they currently have

and use it for juveniles
and we would do the testing

to make sure that, that can happen.

To do this, we use several study designs.

We have an embryo-fetal
development studies.

We have fertility studies,
pre and postnatal studies,

as well as juvenile toxicity studies.

- All right.

Do you have like an example
of some of your work

that you can tell us about?

- Oh sure.

Yeah, so we work on a
wide array of drugs from,

we have the different COVID vaccines

that came through Charles River Horsham.

Me Personally, I worked
on a COVID treatment.

It was a drug that was being repurposed

from a different disease

that they were trying to see

if it had any efficacy in COVID.

We also are working with just a wide list

of different vaccines, as well as,

one interesting test
article I recently had

was cocaine hydrochloride

and they're trying to determine

if it could be used for nasal
surgeries as a numbing agent.

- Oh, wow.
- So, we have cancer drugs,

we have drugs for developmental disorders.

So, there are a lot of different drugs

that we get to work with

and it's very interesting
and very fulfilling.

- And, the whole point is to make sure

that it's okay for pregnant women, kids,

basically anybody who's not a
young, perfectly healthy adult

with no comorbidities, that sort of thing?

- Exactly.
- Yeah.

- And to do this, what
we do is essentially,

we use pregnant animals
and we would treat them

with the test article that
the company has developed.

And, we will look at its
effects on the mother,

as well as the effects
on the fetus as it grows

and develops inside the mom.

We would also do studies
where we'll look at,

how the test article might
affect sperm development

and morphology in a male,

as well as estrus and mating in a female,

as well as their ability to conceive.

And, we'll look at the
offspring from them conceiving

and do they have any developmental issues,

any malformations or variations?

So, we're really just
trying to determine if one,

the drug is safe for the mom,

safe for the dad also

or if it's safe for the developing fetus

and in some cases, the juvenile.

- Can you tell me,

about your own patient
experiences as a kid?

- Yeah, so as a kid,

I had a disorder

that they couldn't really
quite figure out all the way.

And, one of the things we had to do to try

to understand more about
it was visit a neurologist.

And, by no means was it a
debilitating disorder or anything.

I was able to function normally every day,

it was just something small.

It would cost like,

I'll have like muscle
spasms every now and then

and under certain situations.

So again, we went to a neurologist

and in my time of visiting this doctor,

I would always just look
at the posters on the wall

and read the literature

and just read about kids with epilepsy

and kids who had these disorders

that were far worse than
what I was dealing with.

And to me,

it just really impacted me
to see these kids firsthand

and to see these kids who
were impacted for no fault

of their own, they're just born this way.

And I just always wanted to try

to help them some way, somehow.

As a kid, you want to help
everybody, you can sometimes.

And for me, seeing that
right then and there

and it just stuck with me.

- Yeah, no, that makes total sense.

I mean, it seems pretty obvious,

but can you explain from there how

that experience affected
your interests in school?

- Yeah, it's crazy,

because from that moment I just decided,

"Well, you know what?

"I'm gonna be a doctor."

I just said it and it stuck.

My mom handed me a few books, I read them.

And I learned that, if
you wanna be a doctor,

you need to focus on
biology or the sciences.

And, I just did that.

So, from middle school
on through high school,

I just was overly interested in biology,

anything that had to do with science

and the science fair.

So, I just really tried
to put myself out there

and just follow the path

that would eventually get me to a pre-med,

which is what I thought I
wanted to do at the time.

- Did you have cool
teachers in high school

that were helpful?

- Yes, I had very cool teachers.

My high school,

it was a really good high
school for a number of reasons.

They made sure that we knew where we were.

Growing up in the
African-American community,

it was very important that
culture was emphasized

and where we come from.

And, that was something

that my high school
did a very good job at.

We had very good teachers,

very knowledgeable teachers,

but at the same time,

everything wasn't great.

- Yeah.

- Sometimes there were situations where,

for instance, I would
take a AP Biology course

or AP Chemistry course and
get an A plus in the course,

but we wouldn't be able to
necessarily get the credits

from the AP exam.

So, there was some disconnect
there with the education

that was being delivered,

but my teachers were great

and I did have a great
high school experience.

- Yeah, I mean,

sometimes the bureaucracy fails people.

That's definitely true.
- Yes.

- So, what was it like for you

when you transitioned from
high school to college?

- When I transitioned from
high school to college,

it was very good for me.

I mean, just to give
you a little background.

So, there was a recruiter
who came to my high school

and he was recruiting

for this Pre-Medical/Pre-Dental
Plus Program at Seton Hall.

And it was very interesting,

because just a few months earlier,

my mom had handed me another
book called "The Pact,"

and it was about three Black men,

one of them who was from my city,

who made a pact to one day grow
together and become doctors.

And, they did that.

And on their journey to do that,

they all made a stop at Seton Hall

and joined this program.

So, it just seemed like,

wow, everything is just falling behind.

And so, I spoke to the recruiter.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And I ended up deciding at that moment,

I was going to go to Seton Hall.

So, then I did some more research,

joined some other programs.

- And to be honest for me,

my college experience,
I had a lot of support.

I was very lucky to,
one, meet that recruiter,

meet the people I met during

the different programs I joined.

I ended up getting a full
scholarship to Seton Hall,

because of this other
program I joined called,

Martin Luther King
Scholarship Association.

And from there,

between that program

and then the Pre-Medical/Pre-Dental
Plus Program,

I was able to join internships.

I was able to do a bunch of
different pre-med experiences

that I wouldn't have been exposed to.

So, my college experience
overall was very good,

but coming into my freshman year,

there were a lot of challenges.

And those particular challenges,

again, they kind of related

to those things I spoke
about in high school.

So, I'm coming out of high
school and I'm top of the class,

now I have a full
scholarship to Seton hall.

I'm thinking that things
are gonna go okay.

And for that pre-med program,

we had the six week summer course,

before start of our freshman year,

where we took some math courses,

we took a biology course, chemistry course

and I thought things would go well.

And then the first day of class,

they would ask some questions

and I just noticed all of my peers,

they just would raise
their hand really quick.

And I'm sitting here still writing,

still figure out the question.

And I'm like, "What is going on here?

"Somebody didn't tell me something."

So, at that moment I realized, "All right,

"I did good in high school
and I felt like I was smart,

"but I needed to do extra work.

"I wasn't on these other kids' level"

and that was okay with me.

I just had to accept that
at that moment and realized,

"All right, it's going
to take some extra work

"for you to get where they are."

And, I sought that out.

I sought out the help I needed

and it was there for me.

So again, I was very fortunate

to have all of the resources
from those two programs

and from Seton Hall to make sure

that I was successful and things
worked out for the better.

- Yeah, I had a friend in high school

who the high school that we went to

or that the town's high
school wasn't that great

and he was super smart

and ended up getting a full scholarship

to a really top school.

And then getting there and realizing like,

he just didn't know how to study.

- Yes.

- Like you should have been taught,

how to just sit down
and study for an exam.

It just wasn't something
that we were really taught.

- Exactly.

- Yeah.

So, I can totally see that.

Can you tell me about Seton Hall?

I haven't heard of it.

- So Seton Hall,

it's a private college in
South Orange, New Jersey.

We have a very big business school,

as well as the nursing school.

It's a very,

its again, private
campuses, gated community,

like I said in South Orange.

But it's again, very small.

Mostly a commuter school,

so mostly people who did go
there were people who drove

from surrounding towns and came in,

but I did stay on campus all four years.

I had a great time there.

Like I said, I joined two programs

as far as academic programs.

I was able to join a fraternity.

I was able to join other groups.

And, it was a very good time.

I had a very good time there.

And, it was also very challenging,

because it was so different
from where I grew up.

I mean, I grew up in a town

where it was all African-American people.

We were all Black and when
I got to Seton Hall I was,

very few Black people on campus.

So, it was an adjustment,

but at the same time,

I was treated well.

And, it was a good experience for me.

- That's really great.

So, but what do you think could
have helped you in college,

like kind of in hindsight?

- Well, what could have helped me?

I think that it's very important,

like I said again, I think I
was one of the fortunate ones

that I was able to recognize
my limitations very early on.

And in recognizing those limitations,

I was also surrounded with the support

to help me address them.

So I was very lucky.

But, it was times where I
was very hard on myself.

But, if I could say what
helped me in college

or what would have helped me in college,

I would say if they put an
emphasis on professions outside

of being a medical doctor.

So, if I could go back to those programs

that I told you that I joined,

I was able to do two summer courses.

So, after my freshman summer,

I went to Columbia
University for a program

that was called SMDEP.

It was a Summer Medical
Dental Educational Program.

And what we did was we took some courses

that we were gonna be
taking the next year,

our sophomore year,

so we took organic chemistry,

some more advanced biology classes

and some calculus classes.

So, and then in addition to that,

we also were able to
shadow different doctors

at Columbia or I was
able to shadow a surgeon

at Harlem Hospital.

So it was really,

we were able to hang out
with the med students

for about six weeks.

We lived on campus in Washington Heights.

So, it was a really good experience.

But, I noticed that when
I was in the hospital

and when I was shadowing the
doctors that I just didn't,

it wasn't there.

It was something about
being in the hospital

that I just couldn't really stomach.

I didn't,

I guess I was too impacted by what I saw,

too impacted by seeing
people who were sick,

seeing people who may not
be here at any moment.

For me, that was just a
really emotional experience.

And, it wasn't something

that I could really see
myself doing on the daily.

And then again,

if you go back my main motivation,

was to always work with kids.

So now, if we're working with sick kids

and seeing sick kids every day,

I'm like, "Goodness Marcus,
can you really handle this?"

So, I completed the program.

I stayed on my pre-med course.

And then the following summer,

I did another summer program.

And again, all of these
programs that I did,

were because I joined

that Pre-Medical/Pre-Dental Plus Program

and they were able to expose me

to these different
internships and opportunities.

So again, the following summer,

I went to a program at
Robert Wood Johnson.

There's the medical school at Rutgers.

It's called the Biomedical
Careers Program, BCP.

And again, it's the same thing,

we took courses and I did
real good in the coursework,

that was never an issue.

But when it came time to
do the shadowing again

and to actually get in the hospital,

its just shadowing surgeons.

And just for me,

I didn't think it was a good fit.

So, when I returned to
school the following year,

I joined a research lab for
one of my biology teachers

and Dr. Klaus.

She was able to show me a side
of biology till that point,

my junior year, that I
had never known about.

And this kind of goes
back to your question

of what could have helped me in college.

It was a long road to get there,

but essentially I think being exposed

to careers outside of the medical field,

before I got to college,

the only way I thought
I could help those kids

that I saw was to be a medical doctor.

It was to go to med school.

But, I realized that
there were other routes

and other routes,

where I can even probably
be more impactful,

where I can do the work behind,

what the doctors are applying,

where I could do the research

that's maybe one day gonna
really help these kids.

So, I don't wanna say failures,

but through my experiences

and realizing, and learning about myself

and understanding that maybe
medicine wasn't for me,

maybe being in the hospital

and working with sick kids wasn't for me.

I was able to find that
this whole world of research

and it was very, very cool.

But, had I known that going into college,

maybe I could have spent more
time learning more about that.

But again, I guess you have
to experience some things

to kind of know what
it is you really want.

So, I don't regret any of that.

- Yeah, I was talking about
this with another couple

of people on another podcast.

And, the idea that when
you come from like,

say an area where you don't
maybe have a lot of scientists

in your immediate circle,

your parents aren't scientists,

their friends aren't scientists

and you want to be a scientist,

it can be difficult to kind of picture,

what that is beyond being a doctor

or a professor, because
those what you see.

- Yeah, a teacher.

Exactly, that's it

- Yeah, you don't really
see people working in labs

or working just in the industry as much.

- Oh yeah.

I mean, and then that's a
whole other thing, right?

Because once I learned
about the lab and research,

at that point, I'm like,

"Okay, well now, I'm gonna
be a research scientist.

"Now, I guess I think I
need to be a professor,

"I guess I need to and all that."

- Yeah, exactly.

- So, it's another step beyond that,

because now I knew nothing
about the industry,

I knew nothing about
being a study director.

I mean, it took a whole
PhD and a master's degree,

before I ever learned about
what a study director was

or that this position existed.

So yeah, if there could
have been some exposure

to this field

and industry and things
outside of being a actual MD,

that would have been very helpful.

- Yeah,

it's really crazy to think about it,

because when you do
stop and think about it,

obviously there's a whole range of jobs,

between early research discovering stuff

and then late like, say safety testing

to make sure that already
approved drugs are still safe

and non-toxic.

So it's like, thousands of
people in between there,

but we only see like the doctor,

the professor, the drug
manufacturer maybe.

(lady laughing)

- Yeah.

- All the rest are kind of just opaque,

which is interesting.

- That's very true, that's very true.

And I think more work is being done

and that's kind of something
that does motivate me.

Try to expose that,

you don't have to necessarily
go into medical school

or go into the medical field

to have an impact if you love biology.

And, I think that's something

that a lot of kids need to know,

especially ones in inner city communities,

who might not be exposed
to any of this at all.

- Do you feel any kind of
personal responsibility

for sharing your story

or talking to kids who are like you

or like you were younger

and just showing them
what the sort of things

that can be possible?

- Very much so, a overwhelming
responsibility actually.

I feel like for me had I been.

And, I don't wanna keep saying had I been,

because there were opportunities

and I was exposed to a
lot of things growing up.

Like I said-

- Sure, yeah.

- It was very good at
making sure we got culture

and we were able to see people
who were in good positions

and who were also looked like us.

So, there was that,

but it just didn't go
deep into the sciences,

I guess you could say, right?

So, I do feel an
obligation to get out there

and showcase and speak to
kids and let them know like,

there are things that you can do.

And if you want to be a doctor,

please go for that

and expose yourself to that and try that,

but there are a plethora
of abundance of jobs

you can look towards,

careers you can pursue in the biology.

- If you were giving advice

to someone who is like
you entering college

with similar background,

what kind of stuff will you tell them?

What do you wish you
had known in hindsight?

- Well, I can tell you
what I will tell them

and I could tell you
what I wish I had known.

What I would tell them
is to surround yourself

with people smarter than you.

That's something that
I did that, no shame.

(laughing)

First of all, I sat at
the front of every class.

If I had a question,

I never ever had a problem raising my hand

in front of 110 students,

if it was a question that people might,

never be afraid to ask the
questions you need to ask,

because one, those other students,

they may be afraid to ask that question.

And while you think it's-

- Exactly.

- You may think it's a simple question

or I don't wanna say dumb question,

but something that you missed,

it's okay to say, "I
might have missed this."

"You might have already said this,

"but I was wondering,
it was a lot of that,"

but again, surround yourself with people

who are smarter than you.

I was always trying to
just see what it was

that they saw that I didn't see,

see how they could help me.

I always was joining
study groups of people

who were just way smarter than me,

they just (laughing drowns out speaker).

But eventually, it rubbed off on me

and I adopted their habits.

I learned how they studied.

I learned how they looked at
things, how they took notes.

And after a while,

I kept studying with them,

but I didn't need it.

I learned how to study on my
own eventually to the point,

where I was able to hold my own

and get really good grades
in all these courses.

But I had to see what the
kids who are doing good,

how were they doing it?

So, surround yourself with
people who are gonna help you,

not just not people you're
going to have fun with.

And you need that too

and that's something
else I would emphasize.

But as far as what I
would definitely tell you,

surround yourself with people
who are smarter than you

or people you just admire in that way,

people who impress you academically.

But then, the thing that I would say

that I wish I had known
was to just find balance

and not let fear shape every move.

For me, I was always motivated by fear,

the fear of failure, the fear of,

like I said, this whole idea
of wanting to be a doctor,

that started very, very early on, right?

And, when you're 13 or
maybe even 10 years old

and you telling your family
you wanna be a doctor

and you always saying that,

they start to,

I have a huge family,

so they're always, always,
"Oh, hey doc, oh doctor,"

then it just becomes a reality.

And then after a while you're like,

"Well, if I don't follow
through on this then,"

so, you start this fear,

so I was just motivated by fear

and I shouldn't have done that.

I should have had more
confidence in my preparation,

just been confident in what I was doing

and not always be so hard on myself.

So just, I would say if there
was something that I could do,

I would just,

if I prepared, if I
studied, just be confident

in what I was doing.

And not to overstudy,

because people do that.

Sometimes you're studying so long

and you're not getting anything,

you're just trying to
put in more time to say,

"Look, I did this."

- Right.

- But if you do it right,

and you find people who have good habits,

do it the right way,

they're not studying all night,

they're doing it the right way.

- So, I would say I wish that I had, one,

not necessarily let fear motivate me

and have more confidence
in myself and understood

that if I prepared for this,

then I'm probably going to do okay.

And then, had I known that,

I probably would have gone out there more,

done more things, have more
of a life balance in college.

And again, I don't regret anything,

because I feel like I did what
I had do to get where I'm at.

But, I do feel like there
were some opportunities

where I could have maybe gone out

or maybe done some other things.

But because of the fear,

"Oh, I got this exam coming up,"

I didn't do those things.

So, I would say just have a balance

and have confidence in your preparation.

- Yeah.

I think that's really fair.

And to your point earlier,

I think that admitting that
you don't know something

and asking questions is kind of a skill

that we are losing somewhat in some ways.

Telling people you don't actually need

to have a expert opinion on everything.

You-

- One thing I've always told people

is I never want to be somebody who,

people, they see I got my PhD,

I got my master's, oh, you're a scientist.

They think you're so smart,

but I tell them it's not that I'm smart,

it's not that I know all these things,

but I will do anything I need
to do to find that answer.

So if you ask me something,

no, I may not have the
answer and I'll tell you,

I don't know, but I can find it out.

And, that's one thing,
we're professional learners.

We're always able to
learn able to research,

able to find information,

able to understand things,

break things down and then hopefully teach

it to someone else.

So yeah, knowing everything
is very overrated,

but being able to ask the right people,

know who to ask,

know where to find information

that's the skill that's essential.

- Yeah, exactly.

I mean, my friend in college,

he eventually learned.

He doesn't need to know the answers,

he just needs to know who
to ask and how to find out-

- Exactly.

- That's what's way more important

than memorizing everything.

- Exactly.

But, it doesn't hurt to
know the answers too.

- Yeah.

And honestly, if only the smartest people

in each college class ended
up going on to be scientists,

then we would have a very
limited range of scientists

who all kind of had the same ideas.

And that's not good for science, frankly.

- No.

I can totally picture what
you're talking about right now

and it wouldn't be good for
science and nor would it be fun.

- Yeah, yeah exactly.

Diversity, diversity is important-

- It is, yeah.

- Not just from a moral standpoint,

but literally from a
scientific standpoint.

- Yes.

- You need a broad range of ideas.

So speaking of which,

who are some of your scientific heroes?

- Some of my scientific heroes,

so growing up Charles R. Drew
was always one of my heroes

and he was also a member of my fraternity

that I join in college.

So, I love Charles R. Drew.

Also, well, Charles R. Drew he was one

of the men who invented
the blood transfusion.

And unfortunately,

he died and as his death was a result

of him not being able to
get the blood transfusion

that he helped discover,

so it was a very sad story.

- Didn't he work during
one of the world wars.

- World War II, yes.

- And he discovered blood typing.

Yeah, he saved a lot of
lives during War World II.

- He saved a lot of lives, yes.

But unfortunately, couldn't
save his own, but yeah.

Then also, Dr. Ernest Everett Just.

He's was a marine biologist,

also one of the founders of my fraternity.

And then my last scientific hero,

I don't shout him out a lot,

but I'm gonna give him his props,

because he is the reason why
I chose the career I did.

And that's Dr. Ben Carson.

So, a lot of people may
know Dr. Ben Carson,

because of his associations
with Donald Trump

and all these things that
he's currently doing.

But I know Dr. Ben Carson
from the book "Gifted Hands."

That was the book that was
handed to me at a very young age.

And I just saw so much of myself in him

and he was the neurosurgeon.

He was just the guy, Black
guy, he's a Christian.

And, it was just amazing,

so he was my hero.

I don't wanna say he's not any more,

because of the decisions he
made later on in his career,

but yeah a lot of what he did
and a lot of what he wrote,

was why I am where I am today.

- I mean, it's a complicated subject,

but what matters is inspiring
people to do the kinds of work

that you're doing now.

I mean, you might not have
become a pediatrician,

but you're still helping children.

- Exactly.

- So, yeah.

Well, thank you so much
for being with us Marcus.

I will delete the part
where I yelled at my cat,

but other than that,

this has been a really
interesting discussion.

Thank you so much for sharing.

- Thank you for having me.

I really appreciate you
giving me opportunity

to tell my story.

It was really fun.

- We appreciate it, thank you.

- Thank you.

(upbeat music)