- [Mary] I'm Mary Parker,

and welcome to this episode
of Eureka's Sounds of Science.

(upbeat music)

It would be hard to
overstate the importance

of early mentoring in STEM fields.

The most well-known
STEM jobs, like doctor,

and research professor
can seem intimidating

to some students, even when
they have an aptitude for STEM.

It's therefore, very
important for young students

to get a more realistic
idea of the full spectrum

of STEM jobs that are available.

It's also important for
underrepresented groups,

or students from underserved communities

to be able to see people like themselves

have successful STEM careers.

To that end, let's meet a
couple of STEM ambassadors

from Charles River who spend
their off hours volunteering

to bring STEM to students.

Elaine Duncan and Alan
Mukuvare are scientists

who work in integrated biology
at our Saffron Walden site.

They are both involved in the
UK's STEM Ambassador program,

which connects volunteer scientists

with classes to develop science
activities for the kids.

Welcome, Elaine and Alan.

- [Elaine] Hi, thanks for having us.

- [Alan] Thank you very
much for having us.

- [Mary] Thank you for being here.

So first off, can you both give a rundown

of how you came to choose
science as a career?

Alan, you want to start first?

- [Alan] Yeah, I'll go first.

So basically, I was fortunate
enough to grow up in Zimbabwe,

and the UK.

And during that time I've kinda witnessed

the spectrum of life on the other side.

So, in Zimbabwe you get children dying

from easily curable diseases.

Over here in the UK you
get free health care.

So, from that point onwards
I was always fascinated

with science, and knowing how cures,

and medicines work in
order to kinda help people,

help alleviate some of those issues

and those problems faced.

And I now find myself
here doing exactly that.

- [Mary] When did you go to
the UK? Was it for school?

- [Alan] Yes, so me and my
family migrated here in 2005,

when I was nine years old.

So, half of my life was spent in Zimbabwe

and half of my life has
been spent here in the UK.

- [Mary] Elaine, how about you?

How did you get started in STEM?

- [Elaine] So, I guess,

maybe had a bit of a different background,

in just that I was
always really interested

in doing fun science things.

So the sort of put in your coke,

putting Mento sweets
into bottles of Coca Cola

and getting the rockets,
and things like that.

And I was just genuinely
really curious about things,

and I was really fortunate
to have parents, and family,

and teachers who all encouraged
and really supported that.

So, I guess through school,
if someone was like,

"Oh, what do you want
to be when you grow up?"

My answer was always,
"Something science-y."

But I didn't really
know what within there.

And I guess what, maybe
similar to Alan's story,

is that I was also really
driven to help people,

but I did work experience at a hospital

and absolutely hated it.

I remember I watched a
patient get bone marrow taken,

and I nearly fainted,

and the patient was
asking me if I was okay.

And I think that was the
end of my medical career.

So, I just did a very
general undergraduate degree

that was just in natural sciences

that gradually got more specialized,

and my first job as a
graduate was at Charles River,

and that's where I've been ever since.

- [Mary] You know, I've heard this a lot

from different scientists.

They thought they maybe
wanted to be a doctor,

and they always had an
interest in biology,

but then when they got to
the actual treating patients,

they either, you know,
had too much empathy,

or, you know, didn't
like the sight of blood,

or whatever it was.

And then they kind of had to do a pivot.

So Alan, did you kind of
experience that as well?

- [Alan] Not really, I
think I was kinda lucky

that I knew what I wanted
to do from a very young age,

because of my biology
teacher, Miss Garvey,

she really made biology interesting.

And she always nurtured my
talents and my interests.

And she always gave me the
magazine, The New Scientist.

And it was then that I actually discovered

what pharmacology was, because
I stumbled upon a chapter,

and it was talking about
the drug, Tamoxifen,

and how it cures breast cancer.

So I was like,

"Wow, this is the mechanism
of how drugs actually work."

And from that point onwards I started

writing my personal statements to go

and study pharmacology at University,

where I did my undergrad in pharmacology

at Nottingham Trent University.

And then I actually was
like, "This is not enough."

And I went on to the
University of Nottingham

to actually do a Masters in Drug Discovery

in Pharmaceutical Sciences.

And I just learned much more

about the processes behind drug discovery.

So I was fortunate to have
always had supportive parents,

and supportive teachers
who have just guided me,

and led me on this path, really,

which I'm actually passionate about.

- [Mary] Yeah, I mean, that
kind of leads perfectly

to my next question which
is explaining the importance

of mentors, and role
models in your career.

So for you that was your
parents, and Miss Garvey,

and other teachers?

- [Alan] Yeah, very much.

Everybody who I have encountered
has been a mentor to me.

I like learn from everybody.

I feel like there's always
something to be learned,

but those are the people
that have been pivotal

in what I have done.

Even some of my lecturers
have virtually inspired me

to even further explore the
things that I'm currently doing.

And the more you learn
the more you discover

that there's actually more things

that need to be addressed
within our fields.

So, I've actually been
fortunate to be offered a PhD

at Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine

to actually focus on looking
at novel therapeutics

in poor and mid-income countries

to address issues such as malaria and TB.

And that also stems

from just having good people pointing

in the right direction, and
nurturing you and your talents.

- [Mary] Is that something

you were just recently accepted to?

- [Alan] Yeah, so that was something

that I got accepted into like last month.

- So...
- That's awesome, congrats.

- [Alan] Thank you very much.

And that also just stems from issues

that you learn from university

about the importance of diversity.

So one of the areas

which they focus on is in clinical trials.

People from ethnic minority
backgrounds are underrepresented

within those populations.

And you can also see that,

with the current situation
with the vaccines,

the compliance is low in
those populations as well.

And that also stems from
issues of diversity.

And I'm the first scientist
that most people encounter,

so I feel like there's more people

that need to learn more about science.

- [Mary] Yeah, that's a really good point.

We were probably gonna
get into this later,

but why not bring it up now.

Science isn't just for people

that might want a career in science.

It's important to have a strong
basis in science education,

'cause, like you said, "It
affects your everyday life."

So, especially in a sort
of current world situation,

we are aware people want to know

everything they can about vaccines.

But without at least some basis
in science it's really hard

to explain those sort
of concepts to people.

- [Alan] It's very true.

- [Mary] Can you explain...

I'm just wondering what
either of you think

are the best qualities in a mentor?

Is it just seeing them be
successful in their job,

or is there some way
they interact with you

in a way that is inspiring?

- [Elaine] That's a really
interesting question.

I really like what Alan had said

about almost everyone
you encounter is someone

that you can learn from.

And although we can have pivotal people

that we can point to as particular
role models, or mentors,

I think what I've learned, and actually,

probably quite recently,
in the last year or so,

is that although it's
important to have role models.

And for me, when I was thinking
about doing this podcast,

and answering these kind of questions,

I realized that anyone that I
would count as a role model,

or mentor, tend to be women.

And I think for me,
this importance of that,

and I hadn't even noticed
it before, honestly.

But it just meant that
it was never weird for me

to be a girl in science.

That there were always people
there who had done it first.

So, I think that's really important.

But also what I've learned
is that role models

are brilliant, and they
can teach you things.

And you can find, maybe,

aspects of their character
that you want to emulate,

or I really like that they're so caring,

or I really like how they run a meeting,

and I want to be like that.

But you shouldn't aim to
just mimic your role model,

and everything they're a person too.

They also have flaws.

So, I think what I've learned
is to take the aspects

of lots of different role
models, and mentors, that I like,

to kind of create this version of myself

that has all of those traits.

And then you become your own role model.

You're trying to become the
person that you see yourself as.

I don't know if I've explained
that very well, but...

- [Mary] No, I like that.

I do like the fact that you've
acknowledged that role models

are people too, and no
ones gonna be perfect.

- [Elaine] Right, exactly.

- [Mary] But maybe that's an
important thing to see as well,

as a student, 'cause, you
know, if you idolize doctors

then it's gonna be hard to
imagine yourself as a doctor.

- [Elaine] Right, it's
kind of and also seeing,

"Oh, that person does
that. I do that too."

And kind of making those
links, and just, like I said,

just having those people
ahead of you that makes it

not a weird thing for me
to be a girl in science.

(laughing)

- [Mary] Yeah, Absolutely.

Would you agree with that Alan?

- [Alan] Yeah, and just to
echo what Elaine just said.

Most of my role models in
science have all been females.

So all of my teachers,

basically have been females

from what I can remember.
- That's really interesting.

- [Alan] Even now, when
I'm working in the company.

I might be a little bit biased,

but working in the eFez
department I've realized

that like women are more attentive

to nurturing your talents.

So, like Sarah and Amy
are always encouraging me,

and always asking me
to do different things.

And always like, "Are you okay?"

And that reinforcement has
been pivotal in my development

during my time in the
company as well (laughing)

- Yeah, no. Absolutely.
- That's really interesting.

- [Mary] I mean, if your
mentor can be your boss,

that's a total win win,

because, you know, talk
about a learning curve

that's a really great place to start.

- [Alan] Yeah, that's very true.

And just to add on.

But then also, like qualities
that I look for in a mentor.

I think somebody who is patient,

like there's Scott, at work.

He's very patient, and
he's always approachable.

You can ask him, and have
a generic conversation.

Anything from science, and
anything about football.

And I think that's very important.

Being relatable to the people
that you're mentoring as well,

in order to have that common ground,

so you can even explore different areas

that they might be struggling in.

I think those are very
important qualities to have.

- [Mary] Elaine, can you explain

how the STEM Ambassador programs works?

- [Elaine] Yeah, absolutely.

So, the STEM Ambassador
program in the UK is runned

by a group called STEM Learning UK.

And effectively what it is,

is a database of volunteers
who are from science,

technology, engineering,
and math industries.

And the volunteers are effectively
a resource for teachers

to help bridge the gap

between what's in a science
curriculum at school versus

what jobs in those sectors
actually look like.

And I think that's quite...

That is a missing link in
a lot of science education,

at least in my experience.

Biology at school, although
it was really interesting,

and I really loved it, it was sort of,

what can you remember from the textbook

that you can then say on the exam.

And actually, as a scientist,
that's not what my job is.

My job is to be creative, and
to trouble shoot, and to say,

"Oh, well that didn't work.

What am I gonna do next
time to make it work?"

And it's practical.

And that is something that,

there's usually practical
aspects in science in school,

and obviously through university,

but it's always, maybe,

a small portion of the total grade,

or total course work,

whereas it's 80% of what I
do on a day to day basis.

- [Mary] Yeah.

- [Elaine] So, teachers can
approach STEM Ambassadors

to say, "We need help with this topic.

We're looking at this.

Can you talk about how
that relates to your work?"

Or sometimes even,

"We're having a careers fair,

or can you do a Q&A with our class

when we're talking about science careers?"

Or it can from the STEM
Ambassadors who say,

"Oh, I've got experience in this.

Can I help you with something?"

So, that's the foundation of the program.

- [Mary] Elaine, can you tell me

what kind of activities you've created

for the STEM Ambassador program?

- [Elaine] Yeah, of course.

So, the STEM Ambassadors
can do lots of things,

like I mentioned.

Sometimes it's as
straight forward as going

and giving a career's talk,

or just having a Q&A with students

about what your daily life
in science looks like.

But actually one of the
more fun things I find

is doing practical activities.

And one of my biggest drivers

has been to make the activities
we do directly relatable

to the drug discovery industry,
'cause that was something

that I didn't really know
about until I worked in it.

So, one of the activities we've got is,

it's a mock high throughput screen,

so in early discovery one
of the first things we do

as part of the drug discovery
program is develop an assay,

which is kind of a miniature experiment

to measure the effect

of a medically active
compound, potentially.

And we screen thousands
and thousands of those

through the same experiment

to really just get a starting point

of what our drug molecule might look like.

We've developed a mini version for kids

where we take a 96 well plate

and we preload that with mostly
table salt, sodium chloride,

and then we spike some wells
with either citric acid,

which is an acid, and bicarbonate of soda,

which is an alkali.

We then make red cabbage indicator,

which some people might
have done at school,

or in their own kitchens.

If you boil red cabbage the
liquid that you get afterwards

is a pH indicator.

So what we do is, we get the
kids from all ages, actually.

We've got little tiny lab coats

that five year olds can wear (laughing)

And they have these massive goggles,

and massive prepping gloves,
and their parents love it,

and take loads of pictures.

And then we throw purple
liquid all over the place.

But what we actually get them to do

is pipette this purple liquid

into all of the wells of a
column of this 96 well plate.

And obviously the wells that have acid

or alkali in it will change color.

They'll go red if it's an acid,
or blue if it's an alkali.

And we can explain,
"You've just found a hit."

And then we can talk to them

about what we do with that
hit in order to get it

to a medicine that they could buy,

like paracetamol, or something.

So, I love that activity.

I think it's a really great representation

of what we do in our job in a
way that's really accessible.

And also, everything is food safe,

so it's really easy for
the risk assessment,

and we've not really
been very novel with it.

We didn't invent red cabbage indicator.

That's something that has
been in existence for years.

And all we've done is applied it

in a slightly different situation

that makes it really relevant to the work

that we do on our daily basis.

- [Mary] Alan, I understand
that you are involved

in another program that's
geared towards kids in Africa.

Can you tell us about that?

- [Alan] Yeah, so I'm a mentor/ambassador

for the Africa Youth Arise program.

And we mainly focus on helping children,

young people, navigate
their way through school,

because from my own experience,

being a second generation immigrant,

what you realize is that
my parents didn't know much

about the education system here,

because it was totally
different to the one back home.

So, if I'd not had people
who were not supportive,

and motivated me,

and actually pointed me
in the right direction,

towards doing the right A levels,

and choosing the right university choices,

then who knows where
I would have ended up.

So, that's the premise
of the work that we do.

Basically representing those
underrepresented communities

and showing them that there's
actually different fields,

and different areas,

where you can actually
venture into as young people

from those backgrounds.

And also just aiding young people,

and helping nurture their
skills, and their talents,

and directing them in the right pathways.

Whether it's working
with my friends in HR,

because some young people
are passionate about HR.

Creating that network, so
that they have that link.

And so that they see that
this is what actually happens

in the daily life of
somebody who works in HR,

who works in science,

who works in the financial sector.

And that's one of the premise
of the work that we do.

- [Mary] Do you know how many countries

Africa Youth Arise covers?

- [Alan] So, the program
recently started eight years ago,

and we normally just target

quite a few young people
in this community,

but everybody's welcome to join.

Currently we are working
with 140 young people,

and that number is just gonna grow

as we gain more exposure,

and as the program develops itself.

- [Mary] Yeah, it really sounds
like a fantastic program,

because like no one
should feel intimidated

from any job just due to
paper work or bureaucracy.

Having someone there
to help you figure out

what classes to take,
what forms to fill out,

all that sort of mundane
stuff that can seem staggering

when you're starting from scratch.

- [Alan] Yeah.

- [Mary] So yeah, that seems
like a really fantastic way

to go about it.

- [Alan] And that's very true,

because some of the time you
find that some of the teacher's

kinda diminish peoples aspirations,

not by virtual,

by just the lack of patience.

So I've had friends in situations,

who wanted to go into science,
but they've been discouraged,

and been told that you
have to go and do a B-Tech,

and eventually they never actually follow

or pursue what they actually wanted to do.

So actually, just trying to
help them bridge that gap,

and actually just being there
and acting as a role model

for the next generation of young people

can actually help them put
them in a better place.

- [Mary] Absolutely, and I
think that kinda goes back

with the activity that
Elaine was describing,

'cause, like you said,

when you're young and in
school it can seem like science

is all just grappling with
these big, difficult problems,

and writing textbooks, when in fact,

90% of your day at some jobs
might be using a pipette,

which is a skill that
most people can handle.

- [Elaine] Right, exactly.

And I think we've had some
really good examples recently

of people that have joined our company

with no science background,

and they're doing work with
cells, and they're great at it,

because actually, a lot
of it is process driven.

I don't want to put off people

that are good at remembering things,

because obviously there
are certain elements

of needing to know the
real basics of science.

- [Mary] Yeah, the
foundation has to be there.

- [Elaine] Of course, and
people that can remember things,

I'm, to be honest,

not great at remembering
little details and facts.

But what we don't want to
do is tell young people

that because they don't have one

or two of those particular skills,

then nothing they have is valuable,

which is absolutely
not the case (laughing)

- [Mary] Totally, so Alan,
why is it important for kids

from underserved communities

to have STEM role models in particular?

We've kind of talked about this, you know,

being able to see yourself
in the role is important,

but why, specifically,

is it important for
underserved communities?

- [Alan] Yeah, so it's very
important to be represented

when people are making decisions,

and that's one of the important issues

surrounding diversity, because
that can be interlinked

to multiple layers.

So, for example, my
favorite example right now

is the compliance with vaccines

in those underserved communities.

But you might ask yourself the question,

why are people not taking
the vaccines in Black

and Asian communities?

And then you have to
look at it historically,

because during the 1930s

the CDC and the Public Health Service

did a clinical trial in Tuskegee.

I hope I said that right,

where they had

600 Black males from the sharecroppers,

and they had syphilis.

But they told them they would treat them,

but they never treated them.

And that clinical trial was unethical,

and it went on for 40 years.

And it was only discovered

when somebody went and
share that information.

So as you can already see,

that individuals from those backgrounds

are already skeptical about science.

So as a scientist, it's
our duty to try and rectify

some of those issues, and
actually say things have moved on,

and actually the area is more diverse now,

and there're people who look like me

who are actually doing this type of work

that actually affects us.

And those decisions are shared,

and my voice is heard when
those decisions are also made.

And that's very important in
uplifting the next generation

as well, because they
look to you and think,

"Okay, they identify problems,

and they also want to fix those problems.

So, that's just one example.

So I believe, as scientists,

we have to address the
mistakes of our history,

and also, try and address
them going forward.

- [Mary] Yeah, I mean,
you bring up good points

about how there is
justified, in some cases,

lack of trust,

and how it's important
for doctors, and teachers,

and, you know, people in those
sorts of places of authority

to acknowledge the realities of, you know,

things that have happened,

not even in the distant past.

I think the Tuskegee
experiment was going on

until the 1970s.

So, I mean, not that long ago.

And that, you know,

that has affected entire
generations of people,

and their trust in, you know, drugs,

and medical professionals.

- [Elaine] I think, again,
there's also the argument for,

like Alan said, actually addressing them.

I think we have quite a bad
habit of scientists of being,

"Oh, well it's not like
that now." (laughing)

And actually-

- [Mary] Yeah, maybe not.

- [Elaine] That doesn't
do very much, yeah.

- [Mary] But it was like
that that's the point.

- [Elaine] Right, exactly.

I remember my grandparents, actually,

when I went into science,

were really worried that they knew someone

that had got really sick

back in the days of mouth pipetting.

And obviously we don't do that.

We use Gilson pipettes, and
we're not, I don't know,

doing science with straws.
- Yeah.

But that was still a real
valid concern for them,

because of their experience,
again, not that long ago.

So, I think it's really
important to actually acknowledge

and address, and not just
brush those issues to the side.

- [Mary] Yeah, absolutely.

You've got to show the
work that you've done.

I mean, that's something

that scientists should definitely know.

To understand, you've
got to show your data.

You've got to show that
you've put in the effort, yep.

So what advice do you both
have for kids, of any age,

who are interested in a career in STEM?

- [Alan] Elaine, do you wanna go first?

- [Elaine] Yeah, I go.

Sorry, you can cut that bit (laughing)

- [Mary] No it's all gold.

We're leaving it all in.

- [Elaine] We'll have an outtake reel.

(laughing)

I think I'd just say, "Get involved."

It sounds so silly.

I think Alan mentioned a really
good example earlier about,

there's just so much material out there.

If you're a reader,

there's bookshops have
sections on popular science.

There're magazines like The New Scientist.

I feel like Scientific American
is an American equivalent.

Then TV shows.

I am really bad at keeping up to date,

but things like, in the
UK, Brainiac was a big deal

when I was growing up.

And they do all that cool science.

It doesn't really feel like science.

It feels really silly when you watch it,

but it is real science and it's important.

So, just finding those
things to get interested in,

and then talk to people.

If you're fortunate enough
to have other scientists

in your network, whether
that's parents, or friends,

or friends of parents,
or distant relatives.

I think, as well as being
interested yourself,

having someone to share that
with is really important,

even your teachers.

- [Mary] What about you Alan?

What advice would you give for kids?

I mean, you give advice
to kids all the time,

so what do you tell them?

- [Alan] I tell them to just
follow their passion, you know,

whatever it might be
that they decide to do

just make sure you're
good at it (laughing)

Obviously, there's a whole
plethora of stuff out there now

that we didn't have access
to when we were trying

to navigate this road of signs.

There's YouTube channels nowadays,

with a lot of educational content.

Podcasts like this, as well.

And I think that's a very important point,

because just having
conversations like this,

and being able to articulate
science in layman's terms

is very important.

Magazines, Instagram pages

with a lot of Instagram
content about science.

So, yeah, just being curious
and actually going out there

and trying to find things for yourself.

And also, going to your school counselors,

and school guidance counselors,
if they still have those,

they could also be very helpful.

- [Elaine] TikTok, there's
lots of TikTok science.

I don't have TikTok, but it is a thing.

- [Mary] Do you have any
recommendations, Alan?

- [Alan] No, but that's an area

that I'm actually gonna be working into,

because I feel like I have a...

no, no, no.
- [Mary] TikTok?

- [Alan] No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

No I don't have TikTok.

I mean, just creating more
content on my Instagram page

that's more scientific.

But LinkedIn is a good place as well,

because you actually get to interact

with the people who are
actually doing the science,

because most of the
relationships that I have formed

have just come from DME,
lecturers, or other scientists

and just appreciating their work,

and they're like, "Okay,
message me on here."

So, I believe like it's just a matter

of networking these days,

and actually taking the
initiative to reach out,

because most of the
time people wanna help,

and they are actually,

would be interested in helping
somebody who's passionate,

or interested about the same thing

that they're passionate about as well.

- [Mary] You are just reminded me that

when I was a little kid

I just realized from a
young age that scientists

were weirdly approachable,

even in the olden days when
there wasn't Instagram.

I emailed Steven Hawking
when I was a little kid.

- Wow.
- Because I was a giant geek,

and he didn't get back to
me, but his assistant did,

pretty promptly, too.

And even answered my
questions, so, you know.

- Wow.
- Most scientists

aren't as famous as him,

so they usually answer their own email.

- [Elaine] Yeah,
networking is a word that,

I'm gonna say, still terrifies me,

because it feels like something...

Putting yourself out there
is a very scary thing to do,

but yeah, you're absolutely right.

A lot of scientists want to help.

And actually, you're saying,

"I really like you're doing this."

That's not gonna hurt anyone's feelings.

They'll probably enjoy the compliment.

- [Mary] Well, thank
you both for joining me

this has been really a fun discussion.

- Thank you.
- Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

This is really great.

- [Alan] Can I-

- [Mary] Thank you for having me.

- [Alan] Can I give a
shout out to my people

at Charles Rivers (laughing)

- [Mary] Yeah, go for it.

- [Alan] I want to give a
shout out to my land manager,

Bex, Scott, Sarah, Amy,

and Emma, who else? Stephen.

Thank you guys. Oh, and Neil.

Thank you guys for
being awesome (laughing)

- [Elaine] Don't forget Neil.

- [Alan] And eFez for hiring me (laughing)

- [Elaine] I'll do a shout out to

(speaking foreign language)

is my live manager, is amazing,

and just has given me
so many opportunities.

Also, the eFez team for
making me very welcome

when I started.

But generally, everyone in
the department is so nice

and friendly, and welcoming.

And Neil would have a hissy fit

if he didn't get a shout out,

so that's an important one to
get in we'll get it in twice.

- [Mary] Well, and I'll just
give a shout out in general

to, you know, all the
teachers, all the role models,

all the mentors,

all the people that are out
there making science accessible

for kids, and making them realize

that they can have a real career at it.

We really don't deserve you.

It's very appreciated.

(upbeat music)